Traveller-digest      Saturday, June 28 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 1499



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Generic Task Descriptions
Re: Battledress and Heroism
Re: Chargen Revisions for T41
Re: Battledress and Heroism
Twilight's Peak
Re: T4 Task Rational
Re: Rule of Man TL
Re: Character Generation Pages in WFW95
Lighthouses and Battleships (was re: Battledress...)
IG at GenCon97
Re: Battleships and Lighthouses
Re: Re: Space Combat Probabilities
Re: Chargen Revisions for T41
New Character Classes for MT
Re: Traveller: Beyond The Pale... Episode 3
Re: Rule of Man TL
Re: penetrating battledress.
Re: Re: TL of ramshackle empire
Re: TL of ramshackle empire
Re: TL of the Rule of Man (Don't call it Ramshackle!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 07:32:06 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Generic Task Descriptions

On Fri, 27 Jun 1997 19:58:39 -0400, Paul D. Owensby wrote:

[stuff to make T4.1 more "newbie friendly" snipped]

I feel like Gilligan:

"Paul's got a good point, too.  Skipper?"

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 07:32:05 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Battledress and Heroism

On Fri, 27 Jun 1997 21:05:14 -0400, Paul D. Owensby wrote:

> >   Chris, you are obviously missing the Tanker's Lesson.  Tankers can not
> >stay in the tank all the time.  They have to get out sometime.  When they
> >get out to empty the honey bucket or grab a bite of hot chow, the sniper
> >then blows their head off.  This is why tanks don't operate without
> >infantry.  This goes double in non-armor friendly areas such as cities.
> >Too many rat holes to hide a rocket launcher.  The rocket doesn't have to
> >penatrate the armor.  Just blowing a tread off is enough to cost the tank
> >it's mobility.  Pillboxes are easier to destroy than tanks.
> 
> The movie _The Beast_ is an excellent example (and a wonderful movie)
> about just how desperate and paranoid a lone tank/jump trooper/mech/etc.
> is when it's lost and alone deep in enemy territory.

Rent it!  This movie cannot be overly recommended!

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 07:32:08 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Chargen Revisions for T41

On Fri, 27 Jun 97 20:21:20 -0500, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> >>Int PreReq of A+ added for Technical school.
> 
> It seems high that you need higher Int to get into a Tech school than a Med
> school.  I'd drop this one to 8+, like regular University.

If you mean "trade school", Marc, then I agree with Eris.  If you are
talking about "engineer-types", then that is a different story.

> >>At Medical School, now 5 years, automatic Med-1 each year, plus one skill per
> >>year. No degree uless Medical 6+.
> 
> >Sehr Gut! (yes, I'm tired of typing "that's good") training doctors does
> >take a long time.  I will now make my final pitch to have Medical skill
> >split into a cascade of First Aid (or Trauma), Diagnosis, and Surgery.
> 
> Marc, I'll second Doug's request.  I'd *really* like to see Medical
> *officially* become a cascade.  I already do it like this with 4 skills
> cascading as follows:
> 
>  Medical
>     First Aid - the skill of EMT's and trauma care specialists
>     Diagnosis - the skill of figuring out what's wrong
>     Surgery - the skill of cut and paste
>     Pharmacy - the skill of preparing and administering drugs
> 
> >Could somebody get a copy of this from Marc and translate it into
> >something that Word 6.0/Win 3.1 can read?  (With Marc's permission, of
> >course..) I would really like to see a copy.

So it was Doug that originally put forward this request, not Eris.
Well, count me in.  Since Medical is used almost as frequently as
combat skills, it deserves to /cascade/ as well.

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 07:32:03 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Battledress and Heroism

On Fri, 27 Jun 1997 16:04:13 -0700 (PDT), Craig Berry wrote:

> > Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:24:28 GMT
> > From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
> > 
> > It wasn't a joke.  It was part of an actual transcript between a US
> > naval vessel and Canadian authorities off the coast of Newfoundland in
> > October, 1995 (I happen to have the article right in front of me...
> > what a coincidence).
> > 
> > US ship:  "This is the aircraft carrier USS Missouri.  We are a large
> > warship of the US Navy.  Divert your course NOW!" (you can almost
> > /feel/ the arrogance)
> 
> Unless some big changes have happened in the USN since I last did business
> with them, something's been garbled here.  The Mighty Mo is (was) a
> battleship, and not active in 1995.  I'm almost certain there's no carrier
> using the name; states seem reserved for boomers and battleships by Navy
> tradition.

I said it before and I'll say it again... I *know* there is a typo in
this story somewhere :)
 
> > Canada:  This is a lighthouse.  Your call.
> 
> ROFL!

It really brings a tear to your eye if you're a Canadian-- or a
"Newfie" (Newfoundlander).  Our largest naval vessel is a Frigate, for
crying out loud-- we've cornered the market on "humble pie" :)

> Also (more peripherally) reminds me of my favorite WWII naval story.  USN
> squadron was escorting a convoy of merchants across the North Atlantic,
> and entering an area known to present a high threat of U-Boat activity.
> One of the US subs accompanying the group signals over to the command
> cruiser, "In the event of an attack, we plan to remain on the surface."
> 
> Moments later, the cruiser signals back, "So do we." :)

(My turn) ROFL!

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 03:36:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Twilight's Peak

   Hi.
   
> Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 16:11:07 -0400
> From: Thomas Walter Trelenberg <tomt@scri.fsu.edu>
      
> I am looking over Twilights Peak to modify and run in my campaign.  When
> we played it before (oh so long ago) I remember we had a question that
> now one in our group could answer well...so I would like to hear how
> some of you dealt with it.  The question is:  what is this "ancient"
> base doing at the end of some tunnels under one of the octagon
> buildings?  The base was built long before the building was even there. 
> So did the builders stumble upon the "big metal door" while they were
> digging to put in the well...wouldn't it have been worth a lot more
> money to the Octagon society to sell off the location of an ancient base
> (to further their cause) rather than to just build the structure and
> move on.  Did some previous resident (without all his marble stumble
> across the door while digging near the well and brick it up and put in
> the secret doors in the octagon building.
   
   To rationalize this interesting tidbit as well as others mentioned in
   this adventure, I posited that the Octagon Society was actually a
   front for the 62nd-century equivalent of a UFO cult.  The founder had
   stumbled across an ancient site while he was stranded on Beck's World,
   and used its facilities to survive there for so long.  He gave himself
   up to be rescued after he got locked out of the ancient octagon on
   Beck's World, and then founded a front to help finance his search for
   more ancient sites in the Marches.  He and his wacko followers
   worshiped the ancients as gods, and when they found a new site, they
   would plead to them to readmit them to their dwellings.  Sometimes
   their pleas took the form of human sacrifices.  They never
   successfully entered the site at Twilight's Peak; that honor was to
   fall later to the crew of the Gyro Cadiz.  Eventually, the massive
   diversion of funds to their archeology, and other abuses as well, led
   to the scandals which ultimately destroyed the Society. (IIRC, this
   occured around the same time as the psionics suppressions. ;)
   
   Other rationalizations are possible and encouraged, but the hints in
   the adventure make certain that there is some link between the Octagon
   Society and the ancients.  As usual with CT products (Shadows, Annic
   Nova), the referee and players are left to wonder at the implications
   of the adventure they just completed.  Further details are left to the
   imaginative referee, or are left as enigmas in an increasingly
   mysterious universe.
   
   Have fun with Twilight's Peak; it may just be the greatest
   RPG adventure ever made.
   
   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 07:32:01 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: T4 Task Rational

On Fri, 27 Jun 1997 18:10:38 -0800, David P. Summers wrote:

> I don't agree.  A person with Stat-12 Med-1 will be better at many
> things that a Stat-8 Med-4.  I've seen this before.  A young
> talent starts learning and as soon as a subject is covered
> he's doing better than it than a mediocre hack who never really
> understood it in the first place.  So you don't let him
> roll against things he hasn't trained yet (ie heart surgery
> is a Medical-3 proceedure) but you don't just deny that
> he _can_ be better at more basic proceedures than the 
> hack with more training.

More specifically, "the Stat-12 Med-1 character will be better than
the Stat-8 Med-4 character *only* while performing tasks that can be
covered using Med-1.  He should not be able to perform any task
requiring Med-2+ (if he could, he'd have the experience or training to
do so, and this would reflect as a higher skill rating)".

> >         If you really would prefer a first-year med student to treat you when you
> > come into a hospital, that's fine. I'll go with the licensed MD...
> 
> Well, I would rather have a talented nurse put an IV in me
> than untalented doctor.

Here you are making comparisons between two different skills.  IMNSHO,
Med-x covers too much, since there are simply some skills that nurses
and paramedics are better at than doctors (based on what type of work
they *normally* perform).  I believe someone out there has already
raised the point that Med should /cascade/ again, but I forget who
(Eris?).

> > >It was gratuitous because you could have just refered to them
> > >rather than listing every one out.
> > 
> >         I was trying to make a point. Obviously that point was missed.
> 
> No.  I got it.  It was just expressed in a bandwidth wasting method.

I don't think it was a waste of bandwidth, although perhaps it should
have gone under a different Subject header, like "EDU covers too many
skills".  Listing every EDU-related skill like Dave did has a far
greater impact on *this* T4 problem than simply stating "and 36 more
EDU skills".
 
> >Players would be much better off concentrating on
> > increasing their stats, with low skills (you're the one who claims Int-11
> > Med-1 is better than Int-8, Med-4). Why waste time trying to get more than
> > skill-1 in anything?
> 
> I have agreed that, for game balance, stat increases should be
> harder to get.  After all, this is a more fundamental aspect
> of your character.  I just think both talent and skill need
> to be equally expressed in the skill resolution.

Unless T4 adopts a play-balanced character generation system, the
referee is the only one that can prevent munchkins from abusing the
rules (FFFFF1 JoT-10).  Although I greatly prefer a play-balanced
character generation system, Traveller's past history will probably
make such a system highly unlikely for T4.1 or future versions.
 
> >         Other games also have different feels. Traveller generally has not had the
> > "Ultra-Heroic" feel of the Lensman series, where a single character could
> > do everything well simply because of characteristics, while another average
> > (note: don't twist average to mean moron or clumsy, please) character could
> > never hope to match him. And there are very few people in real life who can
> > do everything well.
> 
> Actually, stat+skill does _not_ equal "heroic".  Gurps is one
> of the more realistic games and it uses stat+skill.

(Un)fortunately, GURPS is based *heavily* on play-balance.  It
permeates both the character generation and experience point reward
system.  It is a better system than HERO, however ("what do you mean I
can't buy a sword until I've obtained enough XPs?").

James W. Lindsay     Vancouver, British Columbia
  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"

"Give me the strength to change the things I can,
    the grace to accept the things I cannot,
         and a great big bag of money."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:09:47 -0400
From: hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale)
Subject: Re: Rule of Man TL

Leroy William Lu Guatney writes:

>Yeah, but the achievements (in MT's own definitions) strongly suggest
>that Terra was a High Common of 16.  I can see this remaining until
>the 3I takes care of the rim in prosecuting the Rim War, explaining
>why Terra, after all of that, is TL15.
>
>So as a recap:
>
>  Terran Robotics (AI)        16+
>  Terran Jump                 12+
>  Terran Env. Sci.            17+ (19)
>  Terran Bio. Sci.            ?   (no good comparison except for Ancients)

   And let me guess, the Rule of Man Navy ran around in these huge wedge
shaped ships, and the soldiers wore white combat armor, and the Emperor
(there was more than one of course, but that doesn't matter, afterall
you don't have to use it in your campaign) was this really nasty guy
that wore robes all the time, and he had this hatchet man (well actually
he carried a sword, but I digress) that wears a portable ventilator and
this really cool helmet.  All was well until this farm boy, who really
turned out to be the son of a noble, helped to cause the Second
Imperium's downfall.  He did this by getting together with a bunch of
co-conspirators and they blew up this moon, no two moons! and in the
process they killed the Emperor and the guy in the really cool helmet. 
Now, The ironic part is, see, that the farm boy who really turned out to
be the son of a noble had a crush on this cute princess with bad hair,
who is really his twin sister!  Say, this is *great* stuff!  And to make
it even *more* ironic, both the farm boy and the princess turn out to be
the offspring of the guy in the really cool helmet!  Truly classic
stuff, I wonder why no one had thought of it before?

   Seriously, nice variant Leroy.  Not canon of course, but a good try.

   TL 16 indeed!!!

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 05:16:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Character Generation Pages in WFW95

from the current iteration of Chargen t41

INJURY & RECOVERY
		Injury		Recovery
Half Die	1	2	3		1	2	3
1 	Str	-1	-2	-3		0	1	2
2 	Dex	-1	-2	-3		0	1	2
3 	End	-1	-2	-3		1	2	3
	If injured, roll for characteristic injured and for recovery, which cannot
exceed initial injury. Unrecovered injury reduces characteristic permanently.
	Service May End. Unrecovered injury of 2 points or more allows (but does not
require) a disability discharge. Roll a half die (1-2-3) for the number of
years served in the current term and receive double mustering out benefits.
	Wound Badges. Army, Navy, Scout, and Marine characters with injuries are
wounded in action and receive a Wound Badge (WBn) (n indicates the total
number of times a Wound badge has been received).
	Poltroonery. Army, Navy, Marine, and Scout characters may elect the
Poltroonery DM (which reduces the chance for a heroism award).

MILITARY HEROISM AWARDS
Roll	Award
10	Meritorious Conduct Under Fire.
11	Medal for Conspicuous Gallantry.
12	Starburst for Extreme Heroism.
Army, Navy, Marine and Scout characters who roll 5 - on the Injury Roll (even
if it does not produce an Injury) can roll on the Military Heroism Awards
table for a Heroism Decoration. If Poltroonery DM was used on the Injury
roll, then DM-2 on the Heroism roll.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 04:44:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Clark <clarkm@OIT.EDU>
Subject: Lighthouses and Battleships (was re: Battledress...)

  Well, as I always do in cases of urban legends, I cruised over to
www.urbanlegends.com (great site, by the way) and checked out this
supposed transcript thing.  It was not in the FAQ, except for a reference
in a book review, but the book was published in 1993 and mentions the
lighthouse story, so I think that pretty much proves the transcript is
bogus.  The book it self, _Corporate Legends and Lore_ by Peg C.
Newhauser, sounds pretty interesting - I'm going to have to get myself a
copy.

  I then went to Deja News, and found a number of recent postings on the
topic.  Consensus is the story is an urban legend, with at least one
reference to a joke collection published in 1992, and undated references
to various naval publications where it was published as humor.  The same
transcript has been published before with different ship names and
different lighthouse locations.  

  The documentation was not complete (I decided not to spend a great deal
of time looking), but passing references seem to indicate that the story
may have its origins in the American Navy battlegroup that ran aground
near a lighthouse on the California coast in the 1920s due to fog and
navigational errors at night. One important note - the battlegroup was
observing _radio silence_ at the time - wonderful how urban legands grow
and are propigated. 

  In any case, I think we can safely assume that the transcript is not
authentic, and that the whole story is an urban legend.

______________________________
Dr. Mark Clark
Oregon Institute of Technology

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 09:27:17 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: IG at GenCon97

Any word on any new releases from IG at GenCon.

Anyone know what the 1 day ticket price will be at the door.

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 09:14:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Battleships and Lighthouses

>Now, James! ;->  If you were quoting the article then it *was* a joke. The
>USS Missouri is a battleship, not a carrier, and in 1995 had been recently
>decommissioned.  I rather suspect this is just another "urban myth", but it
>*does* sound like naval officers I've known over the years. ;->

This is indeed an urban myth.  The earliest cited versions of it date back at
least to the 50s.

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: 28 Jun 1997 13:41:24 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Re: Space Combat Probabilities

>30000 km range bands/hexes are great. Unfortunately, when we were putting
>together FFS2/TTA, with only vague notes on a combat system, we were pretty
>much told to use 5000/50000/500000/5000000 km range bands; so FFS2/TTA
>sensors are all based around that


Gasp!  Choke!

I'm not certain whether or not an order of magnitude difference between
ranges makes sense for everything, but I _know_ that different weapons (and
sensor and communications) systems will have different depths to their range
bands.  OK, maybe a quick-and-dirty combat system would have these ranges (in
fact, it might not be a bad idea), but to force the equipment designer to use
them limits all future combat systems.  This is a Bad Thing.

I _hope_ it isn't too late to change this.  Even if the basic ship combat
system is already set, at least the design system can be fixed so that
incremental differences between weapons/sensors/communications are reflected.
I know they were there in FFS, so they won't have to be reinvented.  After
all, FFS2 is supposed to be the _detailed_ design system, isn't it?  It
shouldn't have to be replaced when a more detailed combat system comes along.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:00:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: VolantZep@aol.com
Subject: Re: Chargen Revisions for T41

In a message dated 97-06-28 02:39:35 EDT, you write:

<< >Could somebody get a copy of this from Marc and translate it into
 >something that Word 6.0/Win 3.1 can read?  (With Marc's permission, of
 >course..) I would really like to see a copy.
 
 I've got a copy of Word 6.0, and I think it can read the Word 95
 format..isn't that what Marc has the draft in?
 
 Anyway, I'd like a copy too.
 
 Eris >>

All you have to do is "save as" a word 2.0 doc and most people with word can
read it.  It really easy to do just pay attention to the format it is being
saved in.  And If one of you has it can you please email a copy to me at
toddmoody@aol.com por favor?

regards

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jun 1997 23:29:49 +0000
From: "Stuart C. Squibb" <scs@vectis.demon.co.uk>
Subject: New Character Classes for MT

I have uploaded 5 new character classes for MT, mostly based on 
character classes found in cyberpunk style RPGs, to my Web Site at:

http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/cyberpunk.htm

I would appreciate feedback, either via personal mail or through the 
list, from anyone who cares to try them out.

Stuart

P.S.
Sorry, I don't have an opinion about Task Systems :)

- --------------------------------------------------------------
Stuart C. Squibb       | Home: scs@vectis.demon.co.uk
Isle of Wight, England | Work: Stuart.Squibb@iwha.swest.nhs.uk
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 08:09:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller: Beyond The Pale... Episode 3

Gawd, Roderick! You make me want to move to Montreal, just so I can
kibitz! ROFLMAO!!

purrBANGpurrBANGpurrBANG!!!!



Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:05:10 +1100
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Rule of Man TL

Leroy William Lu Guatney wrote:

> So as a recap:
> 
>   Terran Robotics (AI)        16+
>   Terran Jump                 12+
>   Terran Env. Sci.            17+ (19)
>   Terran Bio. Sci.            ?   (no good comparison except for Ancients)

Now how do you build TL16 robots without TL16 computers, batteries 
(or micro-fusion recators), materials technolgy, gravitcs & 
machanics? (among other things). With this sort of technology around 
in the RoM the whole future history would have to be revised, because 
even a few relics would stuff up canon even more than TL14 Vacc-Suits 
will.

R. Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>

TNE to the Core

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:05:10 +1100
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: penetrating battledress.

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 06:13 PM 6/27/97 GMT, James W. Lindsay wrote:
> >If you are talking about a tank commander that pops the hatch to get a
> >better view of the battlefield, this is more akin to removing one's
> >helmet when wearing BD, not a lucky shot that somehow manages to
> >penetrate a TL12 visor or articulated joint.
> 
> Important difference is that a BD equipped trooper is able to swivel his
> head, turn around, and enhance his field of vision without sacrificing his
> protection grossly.  To achieve this, the swivel points in the armor can't
> be as heavily protected.  In my view, most BD comes with a
> Kevlar-equivalant kilt to cover the hip and groin area, since you need to
> flex tose areas with some freedom.  (This also lets me justify my Marines
> wearing kilts as part of their dress uniforms.)

I'm not too sure how you'd get solid protection for the hips, but 
complete rigid armour for the head and neck, without great weight and 
complexity is availible at TL2, just take a loot at some of the late 
medieval plate armour (and admire the chainmail boxer-shorts :)

R. Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>

TNE to the Core

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:05:10 +1100
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Re: TL of ramshackle empire

Rob Prior wrote:

> >I [Rupert] was thinking on this instead of working today, and it occured to
> me 
> >that there's really no way of exlaining how the RoM could make TL14 
> >Vacc Siuts, and yet didn't have fusion plus - a TL12 invention.
> 
> Hm.  This one could be very easy to explain.  Unless a vacc suit _requires_
> Fusion Plus (or unless the factory that makes it requires Fusion Plus) then
> you could have advanced vacc suit technology without the energy technology.

I realise that making a Vacc-Suit doesn't directly need Fusion Plus, 
but it does require such a large range of technologies that making a 
TL13 (let alone a TL14) Vacc-Suit would nessesitate a very broad 
range of TL12 technolgies to work from.

I've come to the conclusion that Vacc-Suits are a very bad high tech 
relic (is there a good one?) to be handing out. They have such a lot 
of very sophistocated tech in them. A quality TL14 suit is going to 
be made of some awesome material (it has no effective encumberance), 
have a TL14 Hand computer, TL14 batteries, TL14 air tanks (they give 
twice the air per unit volume of TL12 tanks), somewhere there's bound 
to be a Homopolar generator (for say a small laser rangefinder or an 
emergency beacon) - which has clear military applications. I shudder 
to think of the effects of half a dozen of these in a government or 
mega-corps' lab.

> Not to restart the whole TL debate/flamewar again, but tech levels aren't
> monolithic, and many times alternate technologies can provide the same
> effects.
> 
> Thus, for HTL flight you need a power source with a good power-to-mass ratio.
>  Better materials technology will help to lower the mass (of both the engine
> and the plane), but there is no restriction on _which_ power tech you use,
> provided that it can meet the power-to-mass requirements.
> 
> A society could have cars, trains, etc. without internal combustion engines -
> just use external combustion engines instead. 

I agree with you here, I just think that a Vacc-Suit represents a 
very wide range of technologies.

R. Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>

TNE to the Core

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:05:10 +1100
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: TL of ramshackle empire

Simon Early wrote:
> 
> > was thinking on this instead of working today, and it occured to me 
> > that there's really no way of exlaining how the RoM could make TL14 
> > Vacc Siuts, and yet didn't have fusion plus - a TL12 invention. And 
> 
> A lot of this has to do with how things are invented but also with how 
> you use your resources.  Let me take some imperfect analogies from 
> current day:

examples snipped

> The time spent on research is why there should be (IMO) a big 
> divergence in Solomani TL 13 and Vilani TL 13.  For Traveller races, 
> particularly during a war, the TL will be characterised by Jump in 
> preference to anything else.  Inside the Imperium in M:1100 there is 
> much more similarity of tech between world, with the differences due to 
> how people spend their R&D time - better anti-rust coatings for TL 6 
> vehicles or cheaper chemicals production so that they can sell for low 
> prices into the interstellar market.
> 
> "History is decided by the victors" - one of the ways to "define" each 
> TL is "what the <prefered race> achieved at the same time as Jump X".
> 
> I see the Traveller (referee's view) of TL as being "what can be 
> readily reproduced by a society that can achieve Jump X <or other key 
> defining technology>".  Thus, once the "secret" of gravitics is out, 
> any TL 9 society could build them.  Left to its own devices a given 
> culture may never have discovered gravitics, as grav tech may be 
> irrelevant to their world.
> 
> 
> I have no problem believing that one culture failed to develop Fusion 
> Plus while achieving TL 14 in other areas (beam weapons? batteries? 
> figher pilot training?).  Similarly one race may decide that fighters 
> were not viable for space combat (see earlier TML rules wars) while 
> another culture came up with a brilliant way of using fighters for 
> space combat ... when these two races go to war, one of them is likely 
> to revise their opinions!

I like your line of thought, but I don't think it applies to the 
Terran Confederation/RoM and Fusion Plus. The Confederation grew out 
of a modern Earth similar to ours, and one of the key areas of 
interest today is minaturization and volume efficiency (to the point 
where we now have cellphones with keypads _just_ big enough for 
average sized fingers - not my slightly wider than average ones). I 
can't see a society like this missing out on such an important piece 
of minaturization technology. 
R. Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>

TNE to the Core

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 03:05:10 +1100
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>
Subject: Re: TL of the Rule of Man (Don't call it Ramshackle!)

Harold Hale wrote:
> Ethan Henry writes:
> 
> >>    This would not have been foolish at all, at least for Terran
> >> industrialists.  Upgrading everything in the Vilani Imperium would cost
> >> untold amounts of MCr, and the only source for the upgrades (at least
> >> initially) would be worlds that were part of the Terran Confederation. 
> >> This would make the Vilani economically dependent on the Terrans for
> >> many years to come.
> >
> >Well, I did say "in hindsight". It probably seemed like a _great_
> >idea at the time. Its final effect was probably to hurt Vilani
> >infrastructure more than it helped it though.
> 
>    There were probably Vilani worlds that managed to upgrade to TL 12
> standards without having to resort to importing Terran stuff to the
> point that it shut down local factories, but you're probably right--many
> industrial worlds in former Vilani territory looked like an old East
> German factory town after reunification (or Cleveland c.1978 for those
> of us in the US) after a few decades of Terran "marketing" and
> "assistance".
> 
> >Yes, of course. Finding TL 13 artifacts would be possible. I don't think
> >they'd be so shabby either... anything that still works after a thousand
> >years or so is to be respected, regardless of TL. TL 14 is right out
> >though.
> 
>    TL 13 artifact equipment (especially if you could find working
> examples) would be of tremendous value to the Syleans.  Think of all the
> technological deadends they could avoid.  I'm rather suprised that it
> would take the Third Imperium some 450 years to progress from TL 12 to
> 13, so there must not have been all that much of it that survived.
> 
> >Now, the RoM did have some areas where their technology was higher 
> >than anything ever seen in the mainstream Imperium, even in the 1100s,
> >like genetic and medical technology, possibly robotics as well. It
> >might be possible for travellers to find some interesting robotic
> >goodies towards the rim... hmmm...
> 
>    I'm afraid not.  The essay in MT's Referee's Companion on Robotics
> was pretty clear that robotics in the RoM didn't progress beyond TL 12. 
> And as for genetic and medical technology, well you should be able to do
> some pretty advanced stuff at TL 12.  

IIRC there was a comment by someone from GDW in a late Challenge to 
the effect that the TL needed for AI kept rising overtime, so that it 
was always just beyond the Imperium's reach. I note that the TL12 
Terrans used robots that were called intelligent (but are now assumed 
to be expert systems), but all the TL charts place that at TL17. I 
get the impression that the comment about the RoMs robots was felt to 
be a mistake, and they were down-rated. Mind you if you use Vampire 
Fleets even a non-virus TL12 robot brain can be quite skilled and 
clever.

R. Boleyn <gtrupert@iconz.co.nz>

TNE to the Core

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #1499
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